[21:31:20] <samuncle-> Hi baby

[21:31:26] <Baby> hi

[21:31:35] <Seebi> Hi

[21:37:35] <samuncle-> Baby how can we help you ?

[21:37:45] <samuncle-> Btw welcome in our chan

[21:38:17] <Baby> Thanks for the welcome. I'm not really seeking help, thanks

[21:39:00] <samuncle-> Oh okay

[21:39:23] <Baby> I just wanted to drop here for a while to say hi. even though I didn't really plan on coming here, talking indirectly through mailing lists and logs can be hard :P

[21:39:45] <leyyin> well, thank you

[21:40:07] <samuncle-> Baby you are from the debian mailing list

[21:40:13] <Baby> yup, I am

[21:40:37] <samuncle-> Okay

[21:40:50] <samuncle-> Well everyone is welcome here

[21:40:59] <Baby> I'm not coming here to lecture you, to tell you what you have to do, or to listen what whe have to do, just wanted to say hi and meet you kind of in person

[21:41:32] <samuncle-> Baby who are you on the mailing list

[21:41:35] <Baby> Miriam

[21:41:44] <samuncle-> Glad you came :/

[21:41:46] <samuncle-> :)

[21:41:49] <Baby> :)

[21:41:51] <Baby> thanks

[21:41:52] <samuncle-> Sorry bad smile

[21:42:49] <samuncle-> Baby Miriam from the blog ?

[21:42:52] <Baby> yup

[21:43:06] <samuncle-> Okay because there is two Miriam

[21:43:19] <Seebi> And two Myriam? ;)

[21:43:21] <Akien> samuncle: No the other one is Myriam, we've already settled that :)

[21:43:28] <samuncle-> Oh okay

[21:43:33] <Baby> lol

[21:43:33] <samuncle-> Sorry it's confusing

[21:43:41] <Baby> np :)

[21:43:43] <samuncle-> But I'm really glad to see you

[21:43:56] <Baby> glad to feel welcome here too :)

[21:44:31] <samuncle-> Have you tried the game ?

[21:44:44] <Akien> (context note, samuncle- is the main artist of the project, and the one who answered on debian-games a couple of days ago)

[21:44:55] <samuncle-> Oh yep

[21:45:06] <samuncle-> I'm the lead artist of stk

[21:45:45] <Baby> not yet, I'm overloaded with work atm so yeah, I will try it, but haven't been able to yet

[21:46:13] <samuncle-> Okay

[21:46:25] <samuncle-> I have read your blog

[21:46:55] <Baby> it's essentially the screencasts of the game that were published in Debian mailing lists

[21:47:03] <Baby> the screenshots, sorry

[21:47:04] <samuncle-> And I think we can clarify and add some precision also answering to your answer

[21:47:06] <samuncle-> Yes

[21:47:20] <samuncle-> First of all

[21:47:31] <samuncle-> Auria

[21:47:44] <samuncle-> She is the lead programmer with me

[21:47:48] <Baby> cool :)

[21:47:51] <samuncle-> She is a girl

[21:47:58] <samuncle-> Hiker is our leader

[21:48:07] <samuncle-> So we do have girls in stk

[21:48:21] <Baby> just to clarify things, even though I'm one of the admins and founder of the Debian Games Team, I'm not personally packaging STK

[21:48:35] <samuncle-> :) okay

[21:48:36] <Seebi> samuncle-, probably more woman than girl :P

[21:48:43] <samuncle-> Yes women

[21:48:54] <samuncle-> I'm not native English speaker so

[21:49:08] <Baby> so I'm not speaking either in behalf of the Debian Games Team, nor from STK maintainers, nor from Debian Women, I am just myself

[21:49:08] <samuncle-> I might do mistake but I will try to be clear

[21:49:23] <Baby> yeah, I'm not an English native speaker either :)

[21:49:45] <samuncle-> Baby so yes we do have a woman in the game

[21:50:25] <samuncle-> Baby so

[21:51:07] <samuncle-> I don't like (it's very personal) over sexualized video games character

[21:51:07] <Baby> I'm really glad that you have women in your team :)

[21:51:15] <samuncle-> :)

[21:51:30] <samuncle-> Like warrior in metal bikini

[21:51:35] <samuncle-> That's ridiculous

[21:51:48] <Arthur_D> if only they were metal

[21:51:48] <Baby> yeah, it has to be really uncomfortable fighting in those!

[21:51:57] <Arthur_D> then they would have at least some protection

[21:52:10] <samuncle-> Yep

[21:52:23] <samuncle-> So when we decided to do sara

[21:52:34] <samuncle-> I personally wanted to do something different

[21:52:52] <samuncle-> And the team didn't wanted a warrior woman

[21:53:04] <samuncle-> Nor a hopeless princess

[21:53:15] <samuncle-> Who is kidnapped after 2 Days

[21:53:27] <Baby> my nieces are quite into princesses, I know what it's like :)

[21:53:36] <samuncle-> Sara is probably one of the most complex character we have made

[21:53:54] <leyyin> samuncle, go have a break?

[21:54:07] <leyyin> you seem drained from all this discussion

[21:54:13] <samuncle-> Leyyin please

[21:54:30] <samuncle-> Just let me explain

[21:54:38] <leyyin> I think your email and hiker (not yest posted) clarifies things

[21:54:43] shadowm scratches head.

[21:54:50] <samuncle> Baby, so

[21:55:33] <samuncle> we wanted to do something different

[21:55:44] <samuncle> but still being a woman. Not a musclor warrior

[21:55:57] <Baby> I haven't come here to discuss, leyyin, just to break the ice and kind of have a friendlier relationship

[21:56:10] <samuncle> I asked to all women I knew their opinion on the character

[21:56:24] <samuncle> and slowly concepts after concept we did Sara

[21:56:30] <samuncle> It's an open source mascot

[21:56:46] <leyyin> Baby, ok :)

[21:56:49] <Baby> I don't dislike Sara's character, it is the kind of avatar with which many girls can identify with

[21:56:56] <shadowm> leyyin: Not... really?

[21:56:58] <Seebi> Baby: So far I think you are successful, there's really much heat on the mailing list (and I hope it will stay like that) :)

[21:57:11] <samuncle> Baby, that's why I'm happy to see you

[21:57:21] <samuncle> because I think we have a lot of misunderstanding

[21:57:27] <leyyin> shadowm, I can't find the mail now, but it is there in some place :P

[21:57:47] <samuncle> Baby, so first we didn't used pinkish stuff

[21:57:53] <samuncle> because it's a bit cliché

[21:58:11] <Baby> yeah, it certainly is.. too peachy :D

[21:58:12] <samuncle> then we (maybe I) wanted something that stand up from regular character

[21:58:22] <shadowm> leyyin: If you mean it's because we don't have (obvious) non-white humans in mainline, that's actually something we want to solve eventually.

[21:58:27] <samuncle> So I designed something unique for her. A snow mobile

[21:59:00] <samuncle> and we want to have a special physic for bike but that's not done yet and again it takes time etc

[21:59:34] <samuncle> So now for the proportion I tried to do a normal woman

[21:59:44] <samuncle> because again disney princesses are kinda anorexic

[21:59:47] <Baby> yup I know, I'm a developer myself, I know the time and effort it takes

[22:00:12] <samuncle> and that's my own point of view but a woman wiith curves it's beautiful

[22:00:18] <Baby> cool :)

[22:01:09] <samuncle> For the costume we decided to be kinda traditional but still it should not be a complex costume with all unpractical stuff

[22:01:41] <samuncle> So she wears a corset but a corset that is adjusted to her body. Not a corset that will shape herself like a hourglass

[22:01:52] <samuncle> She also wear a simple dress

[22:02:05] <samuncle> Basic, without fluffy stuff. Perfect for adventure

[22:02:08] <Baby> yup, the dress is nice

[22:02:18] <samuncle> Her boots have high heel but they are "tiny"

[22:02:26] <samuncle> Not impractical for an epic adventure

[22:02:38] <Baby> probably not the most practical clothes for riding, but I understand the context

[22:03:00] <samuncle> Now during the development while many women where a bit sad because the dress looked like concrete

[22:03:12] <samuncle> So we said well we could add a kind of animation

[22:03:39] <Baby> that took some software development too, for what I've seen, right?

[22:03:50] <samuncle> but then what would be under the dress ? and the basic answer was hum let's just put a panties. Nothing complex just a very basic pantie it's fun and it doesn't hurt

[22:04:01] <samuncle> Also you have to realize a jump takes something like ~0.5 sec

[22:04:05] <samuncle> + a firework

[22:04:18] <samuncle> noticing the panties is very hard

[22:04:19] <Seebi> As far as I know we have steering, jump, win and loose animations so far

[22:04:30] <Seebi> They can be defined from the blender file

[22:04:32] <samuncle> it's easier to go on google img and just search for panties

[22:04:44] <samuncle> Baby, at the time yes she was the only one who had a jump animation

[22:05:10] <Baby> I also read that you want to animate the hair :)

[22:05:14] <samuncle> but now we have many character. We didn't made a specific coding for her, because we knew it will be useful for other character

[22:05:21] <samuncle> yes sure we wanted to do it. But again time etc

[22:05:38] <samuncle> It took me ~2 month to design sara. I never did a character before this one

[22:05:39] <Baby> yeah, I know about lack of time too

[22:05:47] <Baby> wow cool!

[22:05:55] <samuncle> So

[22:06:04] <samuncle> Then

[22:06:34] <samuncle> for the new version she is the only character to have two different costume because some people expressed concern over the pants stuff

[22:06:50] <samuncle> So again I took time to design a modern, non sexual costume

[22:07:08] <samuncle> Yes it's a latex tight costume but yet we have done it in a family friendly way

[22:07:25] <samuncle> no boobs physic, no ultra tight stuff

[22:07:30] <samuncle> Just a regular outfit

[22:07:42] <Baby> that's not yet in the game, is it?

[22:07:57] <Baby> I mean, I don't think I have seen that latex tight costume

[22:07:59] <samuncle> yes she is

[22:08:11] <Baby> ah okay :)

[22:08:25] <samuncle> So we decided to offer the choice

[22:08:33] <samuncle> if you want to use the traditional dress costume you can

[22:08:39] <samuncle> if you want to use the modern one you can

[22:08:52] <samuncle> Again for the vehicle I personally wanted something that will stand out

[22:08:57] <alket> I can't process this Sara stuff anymore

[22:09:02] <samuncle> Now we already had a snowmobile

[22:09:09] <samuncle> alket, please I'm explaining this to baby

[22:09:15] <samuncle> For one time we have a friendly discussion

[22:09:27] <Baby> yup, lots of thanks for the explanation, btw :)

[22:09:53] <samuncle> Baby, I even went to real bike stores

[22:09:54] <samuncle> https://i.imgur.com/5JlJGX8.jpg

[22:10:05] <samuncle> to see how real biker outfit look

[22:10:15] <samuncle> I asked a friend who is a biker (and she is a woman)

[22:10:38] <samuncle> So for the new bike I putted one of the most powerful machine ever made by human

[22:10:40] <samuncle> A jet engine

[22:10:50] <Baby> I like it, I mean I'm not a biker myself but it's something I might wear myself :)

[22:11:02] <samuncle> So she is ridding a jet engine powered bike

[22:11:11] <samuncle> on the story side of thing

[22:11:11] <Akien> Baby: She looks like that in-game: https://lut.im/vLSqBtLI/TRlg9KCY

[22:11:34] <Baby> wow! she's lovely :)

[22:11:39] <samuncle> Baby, here you can see https://i.imgur.com/f3dr5pi.jpg

[22:11:42] <samuncle> in all her glory

[22:11:51] <samuncle> Now

[22:11:55] <samuncle> her story

[22:12:14] <samuncle> She is probably the only character right now to have a complex story in SuperTuxKart

[22:12:21] <leyyin> I do not think his trolling

[22:12:33] <leyyin> all of you are just tense, go outside for 5 minutes ;)

[22:12:35] <leyyin> just saying

[22:12:43] <leyyin> *he is

[22:12:54] <samuncle> Baby, she is basically the princess of SuperTuxKart universe

[22:13:14] <samuncle> Her flag is in main building. She has an airport called Princess Sara Intercontinental Airport

[22:13:41] <samuncle> And also several other stuff

[22:13:49] <samuncle> Even fighter jets

[22:13:52] <Baby> samuncle: do you plan to include more human avatars in the game, apart of Sara?

[22:14:09] <samuncle> as a playable character probably not

[22:14:21] <samuncle> but as part of the universe and track landscape yes certainly

[22:14:38] <Baby> the number of playable characters is limited, right? you had to remove one to include Sara?

[22:14:54] <samuncle> Actually the plan to put men in swimming suit was planned but the artist had delays

[22:14:59] <samuncle> yes it's kinda limited

[22:15:10] <samuncle> and see this as something unique

[22:15:20] <samuncle> It's very rare among game to NOT have a male hero

[22:15:41] <samuncle> Now Baby yes we do a lot of reference to real life

[22:15:52] <samuncle> One of the reference is the real life Princess Juliana airport

[22:16:02] <Baby> where is that? :)

[22:16:26] <samuncle> http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lylkhxpdYw1qznvi3o1_r1_1280.jpg

[22:16:31] <Baby> don't worry, I just googled it :D

[22:16:36] <samuncle> http://thesuiteworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Princess-Juliana-International-Airport-TheSuiteWorld.jpg

[22:16:39] <samuncle> It's in an island

[22:16:45] <Baby> wow! scary! :D

[22:16:54] <samuncle> it's the real life counterpart of Princess Sara Airport

[22:17:15] <samuncle> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-rYBmQDKZ5Bo/VTVnZYaDlEI/AAAAAAAAAgU/k39ebPBswVc/s1600/gran-paradiso-landing.jpg

[22:17:33] <samuncle> You can see a royal cupcake airway (sara's airline) aircraft landing

[22:17:41] <samuncle> (her crown is the logo)

[22:18:03] <samuncle> Her weapon the cupcake is probably the most infamous (among the basket ball) weapon avaliable in SuperTuxKart

[22:18:07] <Baby> yep, I had already seen that one, I just didn't know it was inspired in a real airport

[22:18:25] <samuncle> So very naturally

[22:18:51] <samuncle> I just put her in a bikini watching planes and enjoying free time on the beach with other characters

[22:19:02] <samuncle> because it's part of the universe

[22:19:14] <ansgar> samuncle: I just noticed: the animal on the warning shield before the airport could be a cat or a penguin.

[22:19:21] <shadowm> leyyin: I found the mention of Wesnoth in the ML discussion and I can't say it's nothing we've not thought of before (though the story as presented there is a little too simplified for my taste), but to me that particular bit of critique seems perfectly sound.

[22:19:24] <samuncle> of our commitment to try to create an epic universe

[22:19:53] <leyyin> shadowm, I was trying to be cheeky, not being serious of course :)

[22:20:34] <Baby> samuncle: yup, a whole universe with its own story, I guess

[22:20:36] <samuncle> Baby, the ultimate thing we have done is for our trailer

[22:20:40] <samuncle> Baby, yes

[22:20:48] <samuncle> and actually it's only sara that hav esomething like that

[22:20:49] <samuncle> have

[22:21:01] <samuncle> other are really just for background decoration :P

[22:21:19] <samuncle> (except suzanne who is living in a village)

[22:22:17] <samuncle> Baby, watch the trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FEwDH7XU9Q

[22:22:22] <samuncle> it's only ~2min

[22:22:40] <Baby> samuncle: yup, the background decoration with (only) women in bikini is what seems to draw most attention

[22:22:54] <Baby> watching it, one sec :)

[22:22:56] <samuncle> Baby, yes because it's a screenshot and it focus everything

[22:22:59] <samuncle> watch the trailer

[22:23:09] <samuncle> it's a honest trailer (everything is in game)

[22:23:30] <Odd0002> if sara's the princess then where are her bodyguards on the beach?

[22:23:35] <Odd0002> hehe

[22:23:49] <samuncle> Odd0002, ahahahaha

[22:24:03] <Odd0002> she's in extreme danger

[22:24:16] <Odd0002> and why do they let people race around her? what if they hit her?

[22:24:17] <Odd0002> hehehe

[22:24:28] <Seebi> Yeah, imagine someone throws a muffin and it hits her :o

[22:24:58] <Baby> wow, the trailer is impressive :)

[22:25:00] <shadowm> I thought those are clones and the real princess may potentially be driving a kart.

[22:25:05] <samuncle> Baby, so you see

[22:25:17] <samuncle> the ultimate thing is the starting of the trailer

[22:25:26] <samuncle> you can see inside the jet engine of HER bike

[22:25:37] <samuncle> then she literally kickstart it

[22:25:59] <samuncle> and fuel is poured inside combustor can ~> the race start

[22:26:05] <Baby> yup, I've seen that :)

[22:26:38] <samuncle> I meet people working on aircraft engine maintenance to do this 10 second intro

[22:26:51] <fosspro> STK 0.9 is awesome work, but why no Firefox Character..... makes me die a little inside.

[22:26:54] <samuncle> Actually the most difficult part of the trailer was this intro. It took me ~1 month of work

[22:26:56] <Baby> wow :)

[22:26:57] <leyyin> ok, now I am not confused anymore

[22:27:12] <samuncle> Baby, so then for the ending we needed something truly epic

[22:27:30] <samuncle> Since we did cocoa temple in a south american country we decided to use the carnival as a theme

[22:27:41] <Akien> fosspro: I'd like to see a Firefox character too. But it needs someone to make it :)

[22:27:51] <Baby> and that's the reason of the poster?

[22:27:59] <samuncle> So for the end you have all those firework. I did again a costume for sara based on real life (yet censored) carnival costume

[22:28:01] <samuncle> yes

[22:28:15] <samuncle> because we wanted to CELEBRATE vlj's work (vincent lejeune)

[22:28:31] <samuncle> because he worked for our game engine that allowed us to do such great game

[22:28:43] <samuncle> because for us it was an epic achievement

[22:29:14] <Baby> yup, I can understand that, changing to a better engine is indeed an important step

[22:29:16] <samuncle> he was angry against the carnival costume

[22:29:26] <samuncle> putted himself outside of the team

[22:30:08] <Baby> I kind of find the poster quite upsetting, to be honest

[22:30:52] <Baby> I mean, I don't dislike it, it's cute, and good taste and everything, but even with that

[22:30:52] <samuncle> Baby, so now you have the other side of the story

[22:31:01] <samuncle> Baby, so :)

[22:31:02] <Baby> samuncle: yup, lots of thanks :)

[22:31:07] <samuncle> what's wrong

[22:31:11] <samuncle> it's cute

[22:31:14] <samuncle> it's not sexualized

[22:31:24] <samuncle> just wait a sec

[22:31:34] <samuncle> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/27/X-Blades_Cover.jpg

[22:31:37] <samuncle> Baby, ^

[22:31:40] <Odd0002> so vlj is gone?

[22:31:47] <samuncle> yes he is gone

[22:31:47] <Baby> sigh

[22:31:51] <Odd0002> aww

[22:31:53] <leyyin> he worked on refactoring the engine, he did a lot of work, then he deleted his work, when he went on strike

[22:31:59] <samuncle> Baby, see that's the kind of stuff we don't like

[22:32:12] <samuncle> but we won't censor swimsuit nor panties

[22:32:18] <Seebi> He didn't delete the major part of his work, only things that weren't merged yet

[22:32:23] <samuncle> we already are super cautious about what to include

[22:32:56] <samuncle> Baby, he wanted me to change stuff to the poster

[22:33:16] <samuncle> I said well I can make the skin of sara darker (because if she is in a sunny country she would have a darker skin)

[22:33:26] <Baby> samuncle: yup, I understand that, I'm not telling you that you should, I see your point of view

[22:33:27] <samuncle> but vlj said himself. I won't negotiate

[22:33:49] <samuncle> he said he wanted: us changing what he said on the ml (poster sara etc)

[22:34:00] <leyyin> tbh this seems to me more of a feud between vlj and samuncle

[22:34:02] <Baby> well, he also is entitled to that

[22:34:12] <samuncle> + setting up a committee that would have overview to our work and could decide if it was a good thing or not

[22:34:36] <samuncle> and we strongly belive in artistic freedom

[22:34:40] <samuncle> so we refused

[22:34:55] <samuncle> two month after he went on debian ml

[22:34:56] <Baby> samuncle: I have to acknowledge that your work is indeed good, no doubt about that

[22:35:10] <samuncle> carefully cherrypicking screenshots from one track

[22:35:33] <samuncle> Baby, it's a bit like if you take only the "love" scene from james bond

[22:35:38] <samuncle> you can make it look like a porn movie

[22:35:42] <Baby> lol

[22:36:03] <samuncle> Baby, if you have a suggestion of a character

[22:36:08] <samuncle> why not suggesting us, or working with me

[22:36:15] <samuncle> not necesserally playable

[22:36:27] <samuncle> but on a track as part of the public watching races

[22:36:57] <Baby> I personally don't like that the track is full of girls in bikini, though, I think I'm entitled that anyway.. maybe when the guy in trunks is also added I might get a better feeling, or when I have time to seriously test it :)

[22:37:04] <samuncle> We won't remove sara in bikini. But I'm the first who will add stuff so the game looks more rich

[22:37:08] <Seebi> Some more people working on models and art would definitely be nice :)

[22:37:08] <Baby> the character of Sara, I like it :)

[22:37:15] <samuncle> Baby, so

[22:37:23] <samuncle> why not adding more stuff in the beach ;)

[22:37:49] <samuncle> but instead of that vlj wanted to remove the monkey who are also part of the public watching the race

[22:38:04] <samuncle> the fact that there is 8 sara in bikini is totally random

[22:38:21] <Akien> I don't think Sara in bikini is wrong, though in future releases when there are more models available, it would be nice to see less Saras and more other models, in trunks, diving suit or tourist clothes

[22:38:21] <samuncle> I never tough about it. I just copied pasted 3D object to try to make it interesting

[22:38:25] <Baby> as long as it looks like natural on the beach, I don't think it would be problematic for me

[22:38:39] <samuncle> Baby, yes it's only on the beach

[22:38:46] <samuncle> or if we do a swimming pool

[22:39:06] <samuncle> also these two tracks are the only tracks using such technology + such level of details

[22:39:16] <samuncle> if sara was in a snowy country she would wear a furry mantle

[22:39:17] <Baby> Akien: so I take that all those Saras in bikini are going to maybe be slowly replaced by Sara with also other clothes and also include male characters?

[22:39:25] <samuncle> yes sure Baby

[22:39:34] <Baby> sounds good for me :)

[22:39:49] <samuncle> Actually one of the thing that could be cool would be a random generator to change the color for instance of the skin of the hairs etc

[22:40:03] <leyyin> samuncle, you want an alien beach? :P

[22:40:06] <samuncle> so you have like a red bikini then a blue swiming short etc

[22:40:10] <Odd0002> let's get the people who are against it make models for us to replace sara!

[22:40:14] <Odd0002> both sides win!

[22:40:25] <Baby> I wish I could make models :P

[22:40:27] <leyyin> that fit in a beach enviroment

[22:40:28] <shadowm> 3D modelling seems so hard.

[22:40:31] <Seebi> leyyin, think of genetic algorithms for the perfect human ;)

[22:40:33] <Baby> I'm a coder, not an artist :D

[22:40:41] <samuncle> Baby, so now think about this way

[22:40:45] <samuncle> 3D model is hard

[22:40:46] <leyyin> Seebi, how many generations? :P

[22:40:59] <samuncle> we just took what we had :|

[22:41:02] <leyyin> Seebi, you already took AI?

[22:41:02] <samuncle> it's that simple

[22:41:15] <samuncle> if I had more different character for the beach I would have included them

[22:41:32] <Seebi> leyyin: No, I don't really have an idea about that

[22:41:34] <samuncle> someone suggested to put a guy in hawaiin shirt

[22:41:45] <samuncle> with a camera taking picture

[22:41:46] <Baby> samuncle: yup, it makes sense, even when it might be easily misunderstood, as we have all found out

[22:42:16] <samuncle> Baby, yep

[22:42:33] <samuncle> and we really planned to have a guy in swiming short (even speedo if someone does it)

[22:42:35] <samuncle> I don't mind

[22:42:46] <samuncle> I'm just not in favor of removing but improving and adding

[22:43:29] <samuncle> if we remove let say 4 sara and replace by 2 woman in a red different looking bikini + 4 men in yellow and orange swiming short

[22:43:35] <samuncle> I would be the first one to do it

[22:43:48] <Baby> I've read about speedo.... honestly, when we go to the beach, my brothers and cousins wear trunks, not speedos, so I honestly think that, here at least, trunks would be more natural

[22:43:51] <Akien> samuncle: Or a one-piece swimsuit, for that matter :)

[22:44:11] <Baby> and speedos might be kind of sexualizing the model... sorry, just my opinion

[22:44:13] <samuncle> Baby, that was our general opinion too

[22:44:21] <samuncle> Akien, sure why not

[22:44:44] <samuncle> Akien, http://i00.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v0/1692322908_1/Women-Summer-Sexy-One-Piece-Swimming-Suit-Adventure-Time-Funny-Cartoon-World-Swimwear-Backless-Elastic-Bathing.jpg

[22:44:50] <samuncle> I would include it without any issue

[22:45:01] <Akien> samuncle: Looks good

[22:45:07] <Baby> lol cool!!

[22:45:24] <samuncle> but I don't want to promise because then I have a lot of work

[22:45:33] <Baby> that one piece is funny :)

[22:46:01] <Odd0002> samuncle: if you take out stuff that talks about adventure time, that URL says "Women-Summer-Sexy-One-Piece-Swimming-Suit-Backless-Elastic-Bathing.jpg"

[22:46:27] <samuncle> for the first time we are going somewhere

[22:47:46] <samuncle> Baby, a good way of doing this would be to have

[22:47:54] <samuncle> generic hats | generic short | etc

[22:48:03] <samuncle> and then an algorithm randomly choose

[22:48:31] <Baby> like creating random characters by combining different elements?

[22:48:39] <samuncle> Baby, yes

[22:48:42] <samuncle> that would be my dream

[22:49:02] <Baby> that would be really cool, but it seems quite an effort from the modelling point of view, right?

[22:49:09] <samuncle> for joking someone suggested that sara had a cloning facility to do her clones :P

[22:49:17] <leyyin> we are not killing people in STK last time I checked

[22:49:18] <Baby> lol

[22:49:34] <samuncle> and yes he was right. Because actually I don't like to have 10290 sara in a track

[22:49:40] <Baby> well, a princess can have her own cloning facilities, right? :)

[22:49:41] <samuncle> I prefer to have different characters

[22:49:47] <samuncle> Baby, yep

[22:49:48] <Baby> :D

[22:49:59] <samuncle> as a joke i wanted to include this in the space track

[22:50:06] <samuncle> cloning monkey/princess/tux/etc

[22:50:07] <Baby> yup, having random multiple character would be really great

[22:50:13] <samuncle> yes

[22:50:16] <samuncle> Baby, https://i.imgur.com/ubSk8ug.jpg

[22:50:22] <samuncle> that's a 3G antenna in SuperTuxKart

[22:50:38] <Odd0002> 3G? that's SO 2009....

[22:50:39] <samuncle> sara is there

[22:50:44] <samuncle> even in such tiny details

[22:50:49] <Odd0002> SOOOOOOOOO 2009

[22:50:58] <shadowm> I'm still on 3G. :(

[22:51:00] <samuncle> okay 5G

[22:51:01] <Odd0002> 4G LTE!

[22:51:31] <samuncle> Baby, that's for an upcoming track https://i.imgur.com/OsGidOp.jpg

[22:51:33] <samuncle> with a metro

[22:51:39] <Odd0002> then dial up speeds for the rest of the month...

[22:51:41] <samuncle> Amelia is sara's grand mother

[22:51:56] <samuncle> she had a central station in the middle of the city and started the empire

[22:52:00] <Baby> gosh, you're going to include a metro? :D

[22:52:07] <samuncle> yep

[22:52:31] <Baby> that's nice!!

[22:52:33] <samuncle> Baby, fighter jet with sara's color http://forum.freegamedev.net/download/file.php?id=8671&mode=view

[22:52:39] <samuncle> (not included yet)

[22:52:54] <Baby> wow!

[22:52:57] <samuncle> now to be honest. No other character has such background such amount of details

[22:53:08] <Baby> but the jet is not going to be playable, right?

[22:53:18] <samuncle> nope part of the background/decoration

[22:53:23] <Baby> pity :D

[22:53:36] <shadowm> A jet racing against karts? Eh.

[22:53:37] <samuncle> Baby, I'm actively trying to get it included in flightgear

[22:53:40] <Baby> I was looking forward to driving it :D

[22:53:49] <samuncle> with sara's coat of arms

[22:54:03] <samuncle> To be honest

[22:54:18] <samuncle> I don't think any other princess has such background and details

[22:54:44] <Baby> probably Peach has

[22:55:51] <samuncle> Baby, peach has no fighter jet

[22:56:09] <Baby> samuncle: just for the record, I'm no fan of Peach :)

[22:56:15] <samuncle> now everything in SuperTuxKart is fictional

[22:56:35] <samuncle> the south american country is called val verde

[22:56:47] <samuncle> united state are called united county

[22:56:49] <samuncle> etc

[22:57:08] <samuncle> val verde is a mix between several stuff.

[22:57:33] <samuncle> Baby, even in the departure hall of the airport

[22:57:34] <samuncle> https://i.imgur.com/O6CaTzM.jpg

[22:57:57] <samuncle> Baby, can I ask you something ?

[22:58:08] <samuncle> you are free or not to answer

[22:58:22] <Baby> samuncle: yup, of course

[22:58:31] <samuncle> Baby, are you fan of Sara

[22:58:39] <samuncle> now you know all her story

[22:59:09] <Baby> I might be... I mean, I dislike Peach because she is a passive item in Mario's games

[22:59:31] <samuncle> Baby, because as hiker write in an un published mail

[22:59:33] <Baby> Sara seems to be an active girl

[22:59:46] <samuncle> we want her to rescue gnu and tux

[22:59:54] <samuncle> at the end of the game as a twist

[23:00:00] <Baby> cool!

[23:00:13] <samuncle> but again it takes time and all that. If we were a company we could do it for the final release

[23:00:29] <samuncle> but we are volunteer with limited amount of manpower

[23:00:33] <Baby> yep, I know about that

[23:00:50] <Baby> do you need more artists, coders or both?

[23:00:57] <samuncle> it's mainly artists

[23:01:16] <Baby> yup, artists have always been harder to find in FLOSS

[23:01:52] <Baby> maybe we should start thinking about how to help improve that

[23:02:10] <samuncle> also Baby one thing

[23:02:18] <Baby> I mean, we have always been quite focused in having more coders and developers, in FLOSS, I mean

[23:02:29] <samuncle> I don't know what's exactly your personal experience

[23:02:46] <samuncle> but I will never never support bulling someone

[23:03:10] <Baby> samuncle: I'm totally with you there

[23:04:02] <samuncle> Baby, don't see sara on the poster as a sex object but as a powerful princess

[23:04:52] <samuncle> celebrating the new engine

[23:06:25] <Baby> samuncle: I understand your point of view, but I'm sure that you can also see the different messages that the poster sends, it's hard to see only that, even when that is certainly part of the picture

[23:06:47] <samuncle> Baby, I agree yes some people will be "offended"

[23:06:59] <samuncle> but we tough it was a great poster

[23:07:05] <samuncle> so we decided to keep it

[23:07:22] <samuncle> again if you compare to other game poster I think we did a good job

[23:07:29] <samuncle> she is beautiful but not sexualized

[23:07:36] <samuncle> it's life

[23:07:38] <samuncle> it's not violence

[23:08:07] <Baby> I never said it was violence, it is not

[23:08:29] <samuncle> also Baby

[23:08:43] <samuncle> I'm sad people find this poster offensive

[23:08:58] <samuncle> when you see all gross sexualized content

[23:09:11] <Baby> I'm currently working a lot with kids about 7-10 ... thinking about that age target, I kind of have mixed feelings about it, I hope you understand that

[23:09:12] <samuncle> just to sell stuff

[23:09:39] <Baby> yup, there's much worse out there, I agree

[23:09:48] <samuncle> Baby, like that

[23:09:49] <samuncle> http://www.billboard.com/files/styles/promo_650/public/media/kim-kardashian-paper-cover-billboard-650.jpg?itok=D7tMNmMs

[23:10:01] <Akien> Baby: Could you explain a bit more what problematic message the poster sends? I'm honestly trying to see what is shocking, but I don't really.

[23:10:11] <samuncle> so having a mob angry against a free software done by volunteer

[23:10:25] <samuncle> while you have such stupid picture done by kim kardashian

[23:10:28] <Akien> Of course there is the bikini top, but it seems to fit well in this "carnival-inspired" setting

[23:10:39] <samuncle> that are just gross stupid, only for sexual content

[23:10:40] <samuncle> I feel bad

[23:11:08] <Baby> Akien: yes, but all the carnival imaginery is intended to be sexualized, per se

[23:11:13] <Baby> that's what carnival is about

[23:11:21] <Akien> That's a good point.

[23:11:33] <samuncle> Baby, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGRBmAw3Q9Y

[23:11:43] <samuncle> that's in a pixar :)

[23:11:53] <samuncle> i truly love this scene and that was one of my inspiration

[23:12:27] <shadowm> Rio isn't a Pixar film. :\

[23:12:29] <samuncle> Baby, but sex is a bad thing ?

[23:12:33] <Baby> lol that one's funny

[23:12:36] <samuncle> shadowm, okay it's a blue studio stuff

[23:12:53] <samuncle> sex is a natural thing and well it's part of human nature

[23:13:09] <Baby> sex, for 7-10 yo, is not really a message I would want to convey in a game

[23:13:20] <Baby> it is not a bad thing per se

[23:13:27] <Baby> (just my opinion, though)

[23:13:32] <Seebi> I agree, that doesn't mean you must have sex everywhere ;)

[23:13:38] <samuncle> Baby, well when I was a child I had no idea what was behind the prince kissing the princess at the end

[23:13:48] <samuncle> but I think SuperTuxKart is fine

[23:14:03] <samuncle> you go to a regular beach

[23:14:06] <samuncle> you see the same thing

[23:14:14] <samuncle> (and even worst)

[23:14:39] <samuncle> looking at pegi we would be probably in the 7+ rating

[23:15:04] <Baby> samuncle: yes, you probably would

[23:15:24] <samuncle> we do a lot of censorship

[23:15:42] <samuncle> In an upcoming track abyss there is mermaid (+ a lot of other stuff okay not just mermaid)

[23:16:00] <samuncle> hiker our leader and auria the lead programer told me to change several time the model

[23:16:07] <samuncle> because they felt it was going too far

[23:16:11] <Baby> :D

[23:16:16] <samuncle> and I agreed without asking anything

[23:16:50] <samuncle> Baby, if you count

[23:16:55] <samuncle> you have 8 sara in the track

[23:17:02] <samuncle> you almost see them ~5 sec

[23:17:12] <samuncle> (on a total of 1min)

[23:17:28] <samuncle> and I'm being kinda generous. While you are racing I don't notice details

[23:18:03] <samuncle> yes somenone can perfectly go specifically to watch sara in bikini

[23:18:10] <Odd0002> that's how I see it

[23:18:10] <samuncle> actually the only one who did it was Vlj

[23:18:17] <samuncle> think about it

[23:18:34] <samuncle> he specifically went to all model and took a screenshot

[23:18:41] <Baby> maybe when there's different clothes and also males, it might look different

[23:18:48] <samuncle> I agree

[23:18:56] <samuncle> it was planed we didn't had the time

[23:19:02] <samuncle> to quote myself

[23:19:06] <Baby> yup, but I think that was important, to know what we were talking about, in the mailing list, I mean

[23:19:18] <Baby> yup, I know, you already told me :)

[23:19:36] <samuncle>  "< samuncle_> But we have only woman in

[23:19:36] <samuncle> bikini. Would it be possible to create a man in swimming short ? ... if

[23:19:36] <samuncle> you do one it will be immediately included"

[23:19:55] <Akien> Baby: To provide more context, since obviously not all participants in the discussion tested the game, I think giving a link to the trailer would be nice, as it shows the gameplay and models

[23:20:14] <samuncle> Baby, I honestly think sara is a good character

[23:20:24] <samuncle> and a good depicition of a woman in a video game

[23:20:27] <Akien> I haven't done it personally as I did not want to partake in the discussion, being to close to the upstream team to be fair :)

[23:20:53] <Akien> Baby: I meant "giving a link in the ML thread"

[23:20:56] <Baby> Akien: it's scary to take part in those discussions, isn't it?

[23:21:12] <samuncle> Baby, https://i.imgur.com/WQRMLQI.jpg

[23:21:13] <samuncle> see

[23:21:20] <samuncle> another character

[23:21:26] <samuncle> in the cocoa temple track

[23:21:40] <Akien> Baby: Yeah, and some participants easily got on my nerves, so it's best that I did not take part I think ;)

[23:21:59] <Baby> every time I do, taking part in those discussions in mailing lists, blogs and stuff, I'm scared about what will happen next.... I always end up getting hate messages at least

[23:22:18] <samuncle> Baby, I can assure you something

[23:22:27] <samuncle> you will never receive such thing from us

[23:22:36] <samuncle> but there is trolls

[23:22:41] <samuncle> and stupid people

[23:22:46] <Baby> yup, I already knew it wasn't any of your team

[23:22:47] <leyyin> from official stk dev team that is

[23:22:51] <samuncle> but us (the core team of stk) will never do it

[23:23:00] <samuncle> yep

[23:23:04] <leyyin> can't gurantee for crazy fans ;)

[23:23:06] <Baby> those things always come from fan kids, never from other developers

[23:23:21] <Akien> Time to call it a day for me, see you around

[23:23:21] <samuncle> and Baby we received some nasty stuff too ^^

[23:23:29] <Baby> yup, I'm sure you did too

[23:23:31] <samuncle> and trying to associate us with gamergate

[23:23:32] <Seebi> Bye Akien :)

[23:23:49] <Baby> Akien: bye!!! :)

[23:24:05] <samuncle> Baby, normally auria will come soon

[23:24:13] <samuncle> she is the other lead dev with me

[23:24:28] <Baby> samuncle: I mentioned gamergate once in my mails, but I don't recall acussing you of anything, but just being afraid of the backslash

[23:24:46] <samuncle> we were afraid too

[23:24:54] <samuncle> I think trolls are in both camps

[23:25:03] <Baby> yup, I totally agree with that

[23:25:38] <samuncle> btw yes you are right about carnival

[23:25:44] <samuncle> most of the costume are very very sexy

[23:25:51] <samuncle> and that's were we censored ourself

[23:26:19] <samuncle> where

[23:27:10] <Baby> I honestly wouldn't have problems with carnival imaginery if both male and females were depicted and if it was targeted to 12+ :)

[23:27:23] <Baby> but that's just my opinion, of course!

[23:27:38] <shadowm> Sooo... if I may give my opinion (I'm not involved with STK at all), taking the screenshots provided in the ML out of context in a blog post that would find its way to Planet Debian before finishing the research (in particular, before hearing back from upstream) might not have been the most cautious move.

[23:28:01] <samuncle> yes I agree

[23:28:13] <leyyin> this ^

[23:28:17] <Baby> I respect your opinion, even though I might disagree with it :)

[23:29:25] <shadowm> Mostly because it's very easy for people to take things out of context, as it's been said before, and present a completely harmless situation as an unambiguously offensive thing.

[23:29:31] <Baby> being STK a game as iconic as it is for Free Software, I think it was important enough

[23:30:02] <samuncle> Baby, I have taken a more accurate screenshot in game

[23:30:07] <shadowm> (I'm not saying I consider one of the issues brought to light to be unambiguously harmless either.)

[23:30:10] <samuncle> Baby, https://i.imgur.com/srNMKlt.jpg

[23:30:46] <samuncle> I think the vast majority of people notice more often a giant plane landing just over their head than the little detail of character next to the road

[23:31:28] <Baby> yeah, it's scary!

[23:31:52] <samuncle> and you can barely notice the characters

[23:31:57] <samuncle> now imagine racing at 150km/h

[23:32:14] <samuncle> trying to keep up and smash other

[23:33:00] <Baby> thanks for that screenshot, btw, it's very clarifying

[23:33:10] <samuncle> :)

[23:33:31] <samuncle> Baby, so you see how vlj "very carefully" took his picture

[23:33:50] <samuncle> pictures

[23:34:02] <Baby> I'm trying to match the screenshots with that one

[23:34:40] <Seebi> Everyone takes pictures carefully to underline his own opinion, that's why it is important to make your own image :)

[23:34:54] <Baby> I see 4 of the bikini girls there, I think

[23:35:11] <samuncle> Baby, there are wore but again

[23:35:47] <Baby> but yeah, in any case I undestand the context :)

[23:36:04] <samuncle> I didn't said to myself how to put a lot of sara

[23:36:19] <samuncle> i just tried to fill the track with what I had

[23:36:33] <samuncle> I counted there is something like ~250 palm trees

[23:36:38] <samuncle> + 8 armchairs

[23:36:51] <samuncle> I never really realized that before we read your blog

[23:38:38] <samuncle> Baby, our censorship rules are:

[23:38:42] <samuncle> no porn

[23:39:09] <samuncle> no religion (building like churches/pyramids/etc) are okay as long as they fit into the general theme of the track

[23:39:18] <Baby> I'll probably make another blog post, do you think it would be okay if I somehow included the convo we have had here? it's very clarifying

[23:39:56] <samuncle> No political stuff

[23:40:23] <samuncle> that's our safety guideline. We try to allow maximum freedom

[23:40:31] <Baby> :)

[23:40:58] <Seebi> That's especially important for addons

[23:41:13] <samuncle> Baby, btw we saw some stuff

[23:41:18] <samuncle> done by "fan"

[23:41:26] <samuncle> Baby, nope you are free to do your blog post

[23:41:34] <samuncle> and to be honest I learned something today

[23:41:35] <Baby> ah oki :D

[23:41:40] <samuncle> and I'm really happy

[23:41:45] <Baby> thanks, me too :)